New Altec speaker boxes Part 2

[selmerdave]

Marty,

I hear your concerns and I agree with you, particularly (and since I brought it up) with respect to the design of Jay Fisher's MLTL cabs and possibile improprieties in manufacturing his design for sale without adequate compensation to him.

I guess the other side of the coin (and I agree with most of what else you said), is that not everybody has access to DIY. I would love to make a set of cabinets but neither have the space or equipment to do so. My options are to 1) buy a set of Iconic cabinets, 2) pay a carpenter to make a set of cabinets, or 3) keep living with lousy cabinets. Option 1 is a possibility, although I haven't been "charmed" with the business communications of Iconic (ie. no info until you commit to purchase) and I don't know if they would be affordable or not. Option 2 is another option but so far the combination of finding someone that will do a custom job and the rates charged for the labour seem excessive, and probably because it's a "special" project for them. Perhaps I will find a shop that will work out, thus far I haven't. And so I am currently living with option 3. It seems to me that Jim's proposition is not too far from my option #2, except that he is not local. Of course I have no idea whether it would work out anyway. It would stand to me that any design royalties ought to be paid and included in the price. Of course if he makes a huge business out of it and claims the designs are his own that's a different deal.

Anyway, I agree it's a slightly precarious topic.

Dave

[bfish]

Commercialization of someone else's design without their implicit permission to do so is theft, plain and simple.

And it's done every day.

[gamalot]

I doubt there is any law against useing the 19 design to reproduce speakers. Where the infringment comes in is if you call them Altec model 19s.
Name them something other then model 19s and make some of the much needed upgrades to the interior, Ie: Bracing, sealing and bolting the top adequately, better bases and a better way of ataching the grills.
For a cabinet shop to build a pair of these it would be a Prototype and very expensive in time and labor. For a big wood manufacturer to make a couple hundred of these it would be substantially less expensive once they have the line set up.
Back in the 70s a factory worker was making a couple hundred a week. Today they are closer to $1000 or more and all the materials and machinery are equally as expensive. I would bet Altec paid less the $200 a pair for the finished cabinets back then but they would be closer to $600 today if they ordered them by the hundreds.
It can be done but one thing that rings very true with all of this is buying a nice 30 year old set is the real bargin today.

Gary

[GM]

Originally posted by selmerdave:
Hi GM,

Perhaps my eye is not as trained as it should be but they look awfully similar to me;


and there seem to be numerous references on the net to the Model 17 as being a 604-8g in a 620A.

Dave

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Greets!

Frankly, I'm not that familiar with either model, but the drawing clearly matches the baffle layout of the M18, not the M17, which is what I was going by. That said, in looking up the dims of both models they are the same as the drawing as best I can tell, so apparently the M17 has a different vent and XO baffle layout on a common box size, which I doubt is audibly different, ergo it seems we're both right from a more general POV. Another example of Altec's increasing 'sloppiness' WRT product designations in that they should at least have been listed as an 'A' and 'B' version.

GM

[GM]

Originally posted by Jammin Jungle Jim:
GM... Please explain "MLTL", "IIRC" and "AFAIK".

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Greets!

MLTL = mass loaded transmission line. IOW a tower design where the long dimension is sufficient for 1/4 WL action to affect the loading of the driver/vent around/at Fb.

IIRC = If I recall correctly.

AFAIK = As far as I know.

net lingo: http://www.netlingo.com/

GM

[GM]

Originally posted by Jammin Jungle Jim:
I called Bill at GPA a couple of weeks ago. Bill told me he doesn't offer any boxes or systems at this time but, he's working on bringing out a "very high end" speaker system. I asked him to give me a shot at providing the boxes.

GM and TODD... If you have a design for a "super high end" speaker system using Bill's new speakers.........

I still think I should start with the 620 followed by the Model 19 (with small improvements).

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Greets!

In retrospect I may be giving GPA credit for Iconic's cabs (I tend to think of them as ~ a joint business venture), but the fact remains that Bill is a highly qualified speaker designer, so between him and whoever did the one's demo'd at shows and sold to customers, that niche market is already covered AFAIK unless they want to pawn if off on you for whatever reason.

Define 'high end'. A simple vented alignment loaded with a coax or with a sub driver doesn't meet today's definition AFAIK.

WRT the M19, along with structural changes, it needs to be scaled up to get the acoustic center of the horn, woofer at ~hear height, which will increase net cab Vb and allow a lower tuning to accommodate today's much wider BW CDs/movie soundtracks.

GM

[GM]

Originally posted by selmerdave:

I hear your concerns and I agree with you, particularly (and since I brought it up) with respect to the design of Jay Fisher's MLTL cabs and possibile improprieties in manufacturing his design for sale without adequate compensation to him.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Greets!

And me, JF modded a design I gave him and was involved with each iteration as he adapted it to suit his needs.

GM

[bigjunglejim]

The building plans for the 620 went to the furniture factory today for pricing. My brother told the furniture maker that we wanted to start with 10 or 12 620 cabs. If no one wants to buy them, I have 12 604's I can load into them. I can alway give the finished systems to my kids and brother.

As for not cheating anyone, Altec provided building plans to whoever wanted them. They were more interested in selling speakers than boxes. OK, let's say I can make a few bucks by selling some 620 cabs. If I were to pay "royalties", who would I send the money to, Spark-O-Matic?

Personally, I can't see this venture becoming a high volume business. I'm guessing there will be a few people who want the 620 and Model 19 cabs. If you were to make some clones, who would you send royalties to? Personally, I don't think it's that big a deal. When I bought my 8184's, Altec gave permission to their cabinet shop to sell them to me directly. They didn't want to be bothered with collecting a few bucks for two custom built 8184's. I think the same would be true today. In this thread someone was talking about get the cabinets made by the hundreds to bring down the price. Get real. Do you think there's a hundred people out there who'd want these cabinets enough to actually pay for them? I don't think so. I'm sure you'll not see my boxes at your local K-Mart or Walmart. This is a labor of love more than anything else.

I don't want to violate intellectual property rights. If you can tell me who owns the rights to the the 620 cabinet design, I'll contact them and see if I can get the OK from them. Perhaps the design has passed into public domain and it's a moot point. None-the-less, I'll assume Altec would have been OK with what I'm trying to do. I'm guessing but, I doubt if Bill at GPA would mind me selling some cabinets that can be loaded with his speakers or other speakers that he serviced. Hey, I'm open and willing to consider other's opinions. As for the Model 19 cabs, they need work to make them better boxes. Will that make them a new design or will I have to do a song and dance with those too?

BTW, I'm using the link for the plans posted above in this thread for this posting


.http://www.davesmithtrumpet.com/images/620.jpg

[gamalot]

My reference of making the 19 cabinets in the hundreds was merely pointing out how prices drop substantially with larger orders.
It would border on pure insanity to even think of quantities like this.
I am pretty sure if you order 10 cabinets at a given price that given price would be cut in half if you order 10 times as many. It is just pure economics and the absolute most expensive part of this build is the original set up of all the lines required to build them. Once that is in place they can whip them out at break neck speeds, the more the merrier.
You have accurately pointed out that you might find a market for 5-10 pairs of well made boxes but even this will be highly dependent on the price with shipping included.
I know if I want a pair of 19 cabinets from you the shipping alone will be $300-$500 so it becomes a moot issue here on the east coast.

Remember this, PWK back in the day sold his cabinet design plans to anyone who wanted them in hopes they would buy his components to load in the cabinets they built. Apparently, there was more profit in selling just the components then in selling and shipping the entire finished product.

We would like to think there are many who would jump at a set of great cabinets but the reality of it all is very few will get off the cash to have them. Every time I buy a set of 19 XOs on ebay, that is another set of real cabinets that probably hit the landfill or fire pit.

I can do what you are attempting to do in my own little 2 car garage workshop, one gorgeous cabinet at a time. When I am done, I will be lucky to sell them for half of what I have in them. People won't pay me $2000 when they can buy a real set in decent condition on ebay for $1000. Now thats REAL!

Gary

[GM]

Greets!

Hmm, my opinions are all based on offering better/more current designs, whether already being offered by one or more manufacturer or by DIYers, not cloning old Altec, JBL, etc., designs that are all in the public domain. As already noted, these manufacturers actively promoted DIYers, small businesses to build them since that potentially meant more profitable components being sold since there was no added profit in them offering furniture grade cabs.

GM